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The Banatar and You...
6 years ago  ::  Aug 31 2008 - 8:31AM
Posts: 635 Joined: Sep 17, 2011

LMAO. :lol:

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6 years ago  ::  Aug 31 2008 - 8:47AM
Posts: 19 Joined: Sep 17, 2011

Quote by V-Melonball
Honestly, I tend to agree.

I sent a warning to someone who called someone a *?$@!*, saying "hey, homophobia isn't going to fly around here". They responded with a sincere apology, then asked "Is **@ or homo ok to say"

I know it's polly-anna of me to wish that people would stop being ignorant, but i can't help but wonder that even if people don't understand why saying stuff like that is a big deal, if they saw posts with similar hate speech marked with a ban avatar they would get the message.

I don't think a supposedly funny image saying 'banned' explains anything to the person that is banned. A simple textual reference underneath a username -- where it says 'Moderator' for you or 'online' for everyone else -- has the same effect. Not being able to log in anymore and seeing the standard forum message 'your account has been banned' also has the same effect. The banned member sees they've been banned and that’s that

However, these two latter methods are far less humiliating than showing an avatar. Yeah, it's so everyone can have a good laugh, said a few times already in this thread. And why should we laugh at the expense of someone else? To make us feel better and revel in our superiority that we have not been banned? Or, in the case of the moderators, to misuse their powers and show the regular users what they can do? That’s simply not how you treat people, underage or not. And, I can imagine you’d also not want to appear as disrespectful to the outside world, with this being your official Volition forums.

If you want to have users understand why they’ve been banned (or warned), then first you need a set of clear rules in place that can be easily accessed and found. Currently there is a limited, albeit clear, list of posting guidelines posted somewhere in the announcements forum. Firstly these are ‘guidelines’, thus not necessarily official rules (though they probably serve the same purpose), and secondly they’re not all that easy to find. You’d think that the most important thing you’d want your users to read would be somewhere in an eye-catching position. Like, pinned at the top in one or more forums or so.

Second, you’ll then need to reinforce these rules as fairly and consistently as possible, which takes time and effort. Lots of both. You’d not want to start making arbitrary decisions, sometimes sending out warnings and sometimes not depending on what-have-you. That would open a big can of worms and would make it near impossible to have users understand what they did wrong when they see other people still online doing the same thing.

Third, you’ll also need to ‘educate’ your userbase on the rules you have in place. As mentioned above, clear-cut rules in an easy accessible place is the start. Explaining to us when we make a mistake why we get warned is the next step. Telling someone they can’t call someone a ‘#$*?%!’ is the first step, explaining to them why not is the next step. That’s not to say you didn’t do that, because I don’t know. I’m just saying. Then you also need to show action on the forums when you moderate. Edit posts with a visible reason, interfere in threads that derail, etc. This isn’t much fun, it’s work. But I think it’s required if you wish to have a less ignorant userbase.

Finally, I must add I do appreciate the openness of this discussion about forum policies that you guys allow us to participate in.

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6 years ago  ::  Aug 31 2008 - 8:47AM
Posts: 372 Joined: Sep 17, 2011

Quote by V-Melonball
Honestly, I tend to agree.

I sent a warning to someone who called someone a %$#*@*, saying "hey, homophobia isn't going to fly around here". They responded with a sincere apology, then asked "Is *?$ or homo ok to say"

I know it's polly-anna of me to wish that people would stop being ignorant, but i can't help but wonder that even if people don't understand why saying stuff like that is a big deal, if they saw posts with similar hate speech marked with a ban avatar they would get the message.

Sure, it is your floorshow. Not much I can say on that head. But, if you wish to debate points of logic, I am game.

Look at the example you gave. The offending member tried to determine the extent of your rules. To you they appeared ignorant, but let us respect their right to remain as such in the privacy of their own life. You cannot expect that because someone knows the rules they will adopt them into their perspective. And, I find it astonishing that Volition appears in the position of attempting to achieve this very thing!

It is as if you expect market share to be affected by a backlash of disgruntled and banned former members. To have V-Singular say that members only get banned after some indeterminate number of warnings, undermines the rules. It cannot be your task to educate or placate members into your view of the universe. However, what you ought to consider is how those members that do conform to the stated rules are affected by your waffling.

Give your rules teeth. Ban members and have done. Make it clear that after a set number of warnings, people will be expelled for a very long time. You can also have a directory listing examples of (edited of course) inappropriate material and their authors (since banned). I would be very surprised if you do not already have a Trash Bin and/or other directory in the Mod forum with such material awaiting deletion or discussion. I am not saying you should make such a section available to the general population, just something similar, locked, and stickied. You could even impliment a scripted meter that privately indicates to members their current warning status at the forum.

New members could easily be reminded to peruse such a section before embarking on their career here. And established ones would have little excuse when clear examples were within easy access. In short, a sign post is easier to spot. Some avatar long buried in the depths of some unread thread will achieve far less. But, again, this is secondary.

It is not about being Polly Annas or bad guys. It just seems clear to me that an open forum requires serious discipline or it cannot progress. You will also never attract a less ignorant crowd otherwise. And, let us not use just numerical age to determine the maturity of a member's behaviour. Be firmer.

-Kitten

P.S. Sorry, but if the current Mods are overtaxed then outside mods should be engaged. I have heard mention of some liability issue with this, but must confess to skepticism when weighing the possible number of underage members here. Surely, a disclaimer and or signed contract would be enough to protect Volition from any litigious reaction. These outside mods would likely have limited power (perhaps editing posts, closing threads, giving warnings, etc.). Most significantly, they would operate according to the stated rules.

P.P.S. This thread does not lack for levity.

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6 years ago  ::  Aug 31 2008 - 9:37AM
Posts: 6526 Joined: Sep 16, 2011

Quote by Marco
I don't think a supposedly funny image saying 'banned' explains anything to the person that is banned. A simple textual reference underneath a username -- where it says 'Moderator' for you or 'online' for everyone else -- has the same effect. Not being able to log in anymore and seeing the standard forum message 'your account has been banned' also has the same effect. The banned member sees they've been banned and that’s that

If a player gets banned, they get a reason why when they attempt to login, it's not .a mysterious thing like "Hmm - I wonder why I was banned". When we're banning someone, there's a text box to put exactly what that person can read as the reason. I just wanted to make that clear.

Community Manager - Volition, Inc.
Follow me on Twitter - @One_Letter (http://www.twitter.com/One_Letter)
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 31 2008 - 9:51AM
Posts: 1340 Joined: Sep 17, 2011

Quote by Marco
Quote by V-Melonball
Honestly, I tend to agree.

I sent a warning to someone who called someone a ?%$!*#, saying "hey, homophobia isn't going to fly around here". They responded with a sincere apology, then asked "Is @#? or homo ok to say"

I know it's polly-anna of me to wish that people would stop being ignorant, but i can't help but wonder that even if people don't understand why saying stuff like that is a big deal, if they saw posts with similar hate speech marked with a ban avatar they would get the message.

I don't think a supposedly funny image saying 'banned' explains anything to the person that is banned. A simple textual reference underneath a username -- where it says 'Moderator' for you or 'online' for everyone else -- has the same effect. Not being able to log in anymore and seeing the standard forum message 'your account has been banned' also has the same effect. The banned member sees they've been banned and that’s that

However, these two latter methods are far less humiliating than showing an avatar. Yeah, it's so everyone can have a good laugh, said a few times already in this thread. And why should we laugh at the expense of someone else? To make us feel better and revel in our superiority that we have not been banned? Or, in the case of the moderators, to misuse their powers and show the regular users what they can do? That’s simply not how you treat people, underage or not. And, I can imagine you’d also not want to appear as disrespectful to the outside world, with this being your official Volition forums.

If you want to have users understand why they’ve been banned (or warned), then first you need a set of clear rules in place that can be easily accessed and found. Currently there is a limited, albeit clear, list of posting guidelines posted somewhere in the announcements forum. Firstly these are ‘guidelines’, thus not necessarily official rules (though they probably serve the same purpose), and secondly they’re not all that easy to find. You’d think that the most important thing you’d want your users to read would be somewhere in an eye-catching position. Like, pinned at the top in one or more forums or so.

Second, you’ll then need to reinforce these rules as fairly and consistently as possible, which takes time and effort. Lots of both. You’d not want to start making arbitrary decisions, sometimes sending out warnings and sometimes not depending on what-have-you. That would open a big can of worms and would make it near impossible to have users understand what they did wrong when they see other people still online doing the same thing.

Third, you’ll also need to ‘educate’ your userbase on the rules you have in place. As mentioned above, clear-cut rules in an easy accessible place is the start. Explaining to us when we make a mistake why we get warned is the next step. Telling someone they can’t call someone a ‘$%@*?*’ is the first step, explaining to them why not is the next step. That’s not to say you didn’t do that, because I don’t know. I’m just saying. Then you also need to show action on the forums when you moderate. Edit posts with a visible reason, interfere in threads that derail, etc. This isn’t much fun, it’s work. But I think it’s required if you wish to have a less ignorant userbase.

Finally, I must add I do appreciate the openness of this discussion about forum policies that you guys allow us to participate in.

he said 2nd twice, lol first he said secondly, then the next paragraph he said second....... just thought i'd point that out

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6 years ago  ::  Aug 31 2008 - 10:37AM
Posts: 372 Joined: Sep 17, 2011

Quote by V-Singular
Quote by Marco
I don't think a supposedly funny image saying 'banned' explains anything to the person that is banned. A simple textual reference underneath a username -- where it says 'Moderator' for you or 'online' for everyone else -- has the same effect. Not being able to log in anymore and seeing the standard forum message 'your account has been banned' also has the same effect. The banned member sees they've been banned and that’s that

If a player gets banned, they get a reason why when they attempt to login, it's not .a mysterious thing like "Hmm - I wonder why I was banned". When we're banning someone, there's a text box to put exactly what that person can read as the reason. I just wanted to make that clear.

Yes, okay, but your response does not appear to address his post or the section you quoted. And, it has a defensive overtone.

Quote by Epik
Quote by Marco
..Finally, I must add I do appreciate the openness of this discussion about forum policies that you guys allow us to participate in.

he said 2nd twice, lol first he said secondly, then the next paragraph he said second....... just thought i'd point that out

That was disappointing of you, Epik. His post was clear, concise, and well intentioned. Your response was spiteful. Hey, you are within your rights, huh.

Am I the only one in this conversation that finds it really distasteful? Perhaps I will ban myself for a time, or at least from policy discussions.

Venetia

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6 years ago  ::  Aug 31 2008 - 10:50AM
Posts: 1340 Joined: Sep 17, 2011

why is it disappointing of me? this thread started out all happy, then went to "I don't think this, misuse of power that". but hey, Every party needs its pooper, thats why we invited u.

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6 years ago  ::  Aug 31 2008 - 11:00AM
Posts: 106 Joined: Sep 17, 2011

Quote by Venetia
Look at the example you gave. The offending member tried to determine the extent of your rules. To you they appeared ignorant, but let us respect their right to remain as such in the privacy of their own life. You cannot expect that because someone knows the rules they will adopt them into their perspective.

I'm not expecting anyone to adopt my morals. But it is a simple matter of logic.

If I say "you can't say **%? on these forums" then they comeback around and ask "I'm sorry, can I say Mother *?%#!* then?", that shows a clear lack of understanding and maturity.

I'm not saying that the person in question was a bad person, but I'd like to think that anyone who has gone through 18 years of life would understand what I was saying (no matter if you agreed with me or not)

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6 years ago  ::  Aug 31 2008 - 11:03AM
Posts: 1796 Joined: Sep 17, 2011

While this may appear somewhat arrogant on the part of the mods, I really don't think they would have ever intended it that way. I think the mods in this forum are some of the most down to earth you'll find. (At least from my personal experience.) And, if someone does something to warrant a permanent banning, it's unlikely they would have ever been decent forum members. Unless I'm mistaken, a permanent banning is the last resort, so someone would have had to persistently break the rules. Changing their avatar to show they are banned, wouldn't really change anything.

I'm not going to defend this idea. I didn't think it was really that big of a deal. But there's clearly strong opposition, and perhaps I didn't read into this as much as I should have. Most of all, I don't wish for any ill feelings to develop between anyone.

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6 years ago  ::  Sep 2 2008 - 5:51PM
Posts: 4432 Joined: Sep 17, 2011

Personally, I think the Venetia is overreacting. It's not that big of a deal. I was banned a couple of days ago, and I can only assume I had the banatar in replacement of my original avatar. Oh no, my pride is scarred for life. The world is over for me. How will I ever recover from such an attack on my morality? I think you get the point.

At the V Team - No offense or anything, but you could really do a better job with the reasons when it comes to someone being banned. My reason was "homophobia." That's insulting. From what I've been hearing from other members, you just label anyone who says "*?!" as a homophobic member of the forums. As I said before, I was reciting something I read on Uncyclopedia. How does that indicate that I'm homophobic? In my opinion, you should put a real reason instead of a label. I was apathetic about being banned, but when I looked at the reason it pissed me off a little bit. I don't like it when people label me at that extreme.

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